Would You Put Your Firefighters On This Roof?

[FF402 133]

I'm not trying to be critical of this fire of which I know nothing about nor do I know anything about the departments operations, just trying to discuss what appears in the photo that was posted on the internet.

Would you put your firefighters on this roof?

[attachmentid=2726]

http://www.firenews.org/fires/Saugus050607.jpg

Fire was in Saugus, MA on May 6th, 2007

(Photo from FireNews.org)

Edited May 13, 2007 by FF402

[mlcougar2001 8]

To me it just looks like the a bad porch fire. I would have to see the rest of the house and have to know more.

[Ex-2114 7]

Looking on the condition of the front of the house (the white side that is), the windows are still intact, no smoke stains, and no melted siding, it does appear safe -- from this view only.

It does look like a deck fire, BUT if you look at the 2nd roof (rear of the house), there was significant extension into the structure which appears to be moving towards the front of the structure via the attic. You can see through the side of the house into the fully involved attic which appears to be fairly involved.

Since the flames are just blowing out of the gable vent, I would use EXTREME caution moving any further on that roof. An inspection hole would be the best choice with a trench somewhere to their left.

It does look like the power has been cut, which is a good thing.

[ex-commish 490]

Based on what I see...no.

[nycemt728 49]

I am not a FF, but just based on common sense and the flames on the right side of the roof, I would have to say only w/ extreme caution or no for roof opreations!

[64FFMJK 21]

From the fact that you can see flames coming out the gable vent and you can see through the side of the structure it to what looks to be an active attic fire I would say NO. If you look at the pic again you see that the ff standing is holding a saw so it looks as if they are prpairing to cut an inspection or vent hole in the roof. also I would need to know what hose team were in operation in what locations of the house if they were pushing the fire out the end of the house by an interior attack

[Guest]

no! it's probably a truss roof. what are you gaining by putting lives in danger. if your able to get to the second floor pop a hole in the cieling or open the attic door with a line in place. homes like these dont have finished attics so if they are not loaded to the gills with crap most likely there is no flooring in the attic. the fire does appear to have started under the deck seeing how the smoke is going in the direction of the house. if you wanted to vent the attic cut a horizontal hole in the far end, there apears to be a wind problem there. there still is a good amount of fire in the attic.

Edited May 13, 2007 by mrbolz

[DOC22 1]

Looking at the way the fire is working in the attic, as has already been said, definitely worth lives for that. Watch that power line as well, it looks like it burned away from the house, so it may well still be live. It looks like it's still connected at the pole. Just another potential safety issue.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Fire conditions presenting from the cockloft, I would not put any firefighters up there.

[Jason762 2]

no! it's probably a truss roof. what are you gaining by putting lives in danger. if your able to get to the second floor pop a hole in the cieling or open the attic door with a line in place. homes like these dont have finished attics so if they are not loaded to the gills with crap most likely there is no flooring in the attic. the fire does appear to have started under the deck seeing how the smoke is going in the direction of the house. if you wanted to vent the attic cut a horizontal hole in the far end, there apears to be a wind problem there. there still is a good amount of fire in the attic.

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Why is this probably a truss roof? It appears that this fire has been burning long enough so if it was a truss there would have been at least a partial collapse by this time. As we all know trusses can collapse in as little as 5 minutes time from when the fire starts attacking the structural members. Therefore I believe this to ba a regular stick built home. IMO from this one single picture you can't ge a complete feeling for what is going on, but based on what we can see I feel it should be safe to allow members to operate on the "A" side roof only. Having proper, aggressive, vertical ventilation will greatly reduce the beating the interior teams will take, thus making the whole operation go much better and reduce the chance of making a parking lot. Hopefully the roof team would have enough sense to report if conditions were bad and retreat from the roof. I would at least allow them the chance to ventilate this buidling.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Jason762

[IzzyEng4 427]

Upon arrival, with conditions like this, no.

Once an interior inspection of conditions is conducted and is deemed the roof line is safe, then yes, but not for an initial since you can't see how the trusses are effected or if there is heavy fire in the attic or c*** loft, assume there is.

[Guest]

From that single picture, it looks like a porch fire with extension into the attic space on the D side. There doesn't appear to be smoke pushing from other sides, and no really dark smoke, so the fire is probably just extending. Since it is in the attic, you pretty much have to vent the roof. Horizontal ventilation of the second floor windows won't cut it. Also, I wouldn't expect truss construction here.

If you commit to the roof, you may want to operate a bit differently than what is being done in the picture. Can you work off of an aerial ladder? If you have to use ground ladders, then use a roof ladder. Have a secondary means of egress from the roof.

And, the roof team should sound the roof and they will know pretty quickly how it feels.

My fear is that if you don't make an attempt to vent the roof, you will burn the roof off. This house appears savable.

[lad12derff 283]

no! it's probably a truss roof. what are you gaining by putting lives in danger. if your able to get to the second floor pop a hole in the cieling or open the attic door with a line in place. homes like these dont have finished attics so if they are not loaded to the gills with crap most likely there is no flooring in the attic. the fire does appear to have started under the deck seeing how the smoke is going in the direction of the house. if you wanted to vent the attic cut a horizontal hole in the far end, there apears to be a wind problem there. there still is a good amount of fire in the attic.

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I would have to disagree with this chief's inititial size up. There is no indication of a truss roof system. Long roof spans with very high peaks would be a first indication. Like you see in the "McMantions". This is not to say that a small ranch would not have a truss roof because we all know that could be possible. As for the venting part on the opposite side of the structure I would advise against that unless your plan is to burn off the entire roof and if that is the case go for it!!! We vent over the fire to draw the fire up and out and to give advancing engine crews a better working enviorment. J.M.O.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Why is this probably a truss roof?

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I would say you have to assume it is a truss roof! Don't be complacent and assume otherwise.

Unless an engineer, or architect, or someone who knows what the hell they're talking about can verify otherwise, but even then, why would you take their word for it??

Even with a stick built roof, there are still advanced, heavy fire conditions present in the cockloft, why risk the guys?

ASSUME THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

Edited May 13, 2007 by xfirefighter484x

[Guest Firediver]

What is our main goal here? Save the house? Is there a life hazard? get an AGRESSIVE engine company and truck company inside, start pulling some ceiling on the 2nd floor in that 4/1 corner and knock it down. From this pic there really isn't that much fire showning, nor is any heavy smoke condition. Looks mostly exterior(from what I can see) minor saging in the roof in the rear(look close). Now, as for putting some "expirenced" FF's on that roof , that depends on what our main goal is. Not alot of smoke pushing from the eves either. If it is absolutely necessary to vent and it is a truss roof set up the tower ladder and vent out of the bucket.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

1. I don't really want to put any firefighters on a roof. Work off an aerial device when possible.

2. Good size up is the key here, fire conditions in the attic, and very loosely the time frame if it is truss, etc. would influence my decision. Looking at the photo and if the roof felt and sounded sound upon getting to the top of the ground ladder, yes I would make a quick well placed hole, with an appropriate roof ladder. From what I can see in the picture the fire started as exterior and pushed into the attic space, there is no other smoke visible coming from the eaves or any other portions of the roof. A well placed hole could mean the difference if the fire is just getting hold in this attic and get all the heat and gases up and out and contain it over the burned area.

3. All roofs are truss roofs until proven otherwise. I do not use time lines to assume whether it is truss or not or if a collapse should or shouldn't have happened. Truss systems often fail without warning..whether it be 2 minutes..5 minutes or 20 minutes later. It depends on the fire volume and the condition of the trusses and connectors. A quick pull of the ceiling near the front door to see into the space is all you need to confirm this or not. Age of the building also means nothing, many of us are seeing roofs being replaced with the use of trusses. Span...great indicator...high angles with large spans..another good indicator. But again, we can't just assume. A simple scissor truss will have a low angle like this...the Temple Faith Church Fire in Texas which is a case history in the FAST curriculum and several months ago was an excellent article in Fire Engineering involved a multi-LODD incident with scissor trusses with about the same angle as that ranch house in the picture.

Don't assume...find out. Every roof is a truss roof until proven otherwise. When it doubt...forget the 1 3/4" preconnect and grab a 2 1/2"...overwhelm the fire with flow.

[Guest]

this house isn't in my district. i don't know when this house was built nor do i have other pictures or stats to get more education. anyway we can see fire pushing out and burning back over the roof. there is a good amount of fire in the attic. as some have stated could be truss, there are roofs like this in truss construction. there is some distortion to the roof in the far corner. the left side of the picture there is alot of smoke with a good amount of wind behind it. we are fortunate to have a stick and a tower in mt. kisco which makes the job a little safer. we need more pictures to be constructive.

[Guest]

LOOKS ALITTLE DICEY WITH FIRE OUT THE VENT, TOO BAD THEY COULDN'T BE WORKING OFF AN AERIAL OR OUT OF A TOWER LADDER BUCKET

[Oswegowind 17]

Very tough question based on a picture. Everyone seems to have good input. Safety should be everyone's first concern and as ALS said...every roof is a truss roof until proven otherwise...very wise words from Mr. Safety himself!

Plain old simple yes or no question.

NO!

[antiquefirelt 994]

I have to tell you, I think some of you are way off on the amount of fire inside the attic. There is little to no velocity of the smoke or flame, coupled with light colored smoke. I'd say the bulk of the fire was on the outside. Some extension? Highly likely. Heavy fire? I don't beleive it. Of course none of us would be so foolish to base any tactical decision on just one view, I hope. I'd certainly rather work this and any roof from the bucket rather than putting guys on the roof.

On trusses, in another life, I've worked on and installed low-pitched lightweight wood roof trusses. So the pitch is no indicator of truss or rafters. But this type of housing is real common in my area. They have been predominantly built with rafters but lately everything is trusses, especially where there's no attic space to contend with.

Any whoever said "trench cut", you might want to rethink that. Most trenches take much longer than one single family dwelling will allow for.

In the end, I'd want my interior crew telling me the conditions and opening up to get some water in the attic. Then if it was really needed I'd send the crews on that roof, with absolute knowledge of the fire conditions in the attic. I'm pretty sure the Jakes in Saugus aren't stupid, they get plenty of work and do a good job.

[Guest]

If it can be done safely and looking at the photo there is a need to open the roof, than it should be done. Your engine crew will thank you. Open it up and get down as soon as possible.

[huzzie59 75]

Close up

[Guest]

Some further thoughts on truss construction. If a fire has entered a void space in a truss construction occupancy, then you shouldn't be in the occupancy. Fight it from a defensive mode. If it is a truss roof and you are below it, then you are going to find yourself in trouble when it collapses. NIOSH sent out some guidance a while back that clearly stated that fires inside of void spaces in houses with truss or other lightweight construction warrant IMMEDIATE evacuation from the structure with operations shifting to a defensive mode. That is an SOP on our department because we have many occupancies with lightweight construction.

The interior crew needs to open up the void spaces to determine if there is lightweight construction, and if so, if there is fire in a void space. We have no idea what interior crews are finding in this picture. The house doesn't seem to be built with truss construction. Making this assumption, if you want to put out an attic fire, then you need to vent the roof. And, conventional wisdon says that if you don't want to put men on the roof, then you don't want them working under the roof. If you think that roof is that unsafe, then it is too unsafe to be working under it. In that case work in a defensive mode.

This house is savable. This was a porch fire with some extension into the A/D side. The color of the smoke indicates that it is just beginning to extend. Work safely to put a vent on the A/D side roof, get a hose to that second floor and get the fire out. Open up that A/D wall and ceiling, check for the type of construction, and, assuming no fire in a lightweight construction void space, extinguish the fire. I don't see this fire as a huge life safety risk. If we can't put this out, then we might as well fight only defensive fires.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Heres another question, what if your officer ORDERED you on that roof, would you go?

[Guest partyrock]

Absolutely. Climb up there, sound the roof, cut my inspection holes, and get a roof ladder up there to work off of. Same procedure for every roof I'm sent on. No boss is going to try and get you hurt. If he sends you up there, go up and check it out. If you find it to be unsafe report the conditions to the officer.

[x129K 1,393]

Absolutely.  Climb up there, sound the roof, cut my inspection holes, and get a roof ladder up there to work off of.  Same procedure for every roof I'm sent on.  No boss is going to try and get you hurt.  If he sends you up there, go up and check it out.  If you find it to be unsafe report the conditions to the officer.

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Bingo!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Being I said I would get on it to vent based on the picture...yes I would go up if my officer sent me and I would have no problem sending people up there. The decision like party alluded too is made when you get to the roof line and sound the roof. Nothing replaces common sense and knowledge...

[lad12derff 283]

The structure looks like the typical 1950s/60s constructed raised ranch. As I saw one day working on a house off Spook Hill Road in Dutchess, there may not even have been any plywood sheeting on the exterior of the house that would have kept this fire outside the structure. They used some kind of composite sheet, then 1/4" insulation to mount the siding on. Looks like something happened on the deck (grill) that extended up the vinyl siding (read: vertical gasoline) and extended into the attic.

Send people to the roof, (unless truss, unsafe conditions, alt. method of vent selected), when needed. Based on the picture...no need. There is fire venting out the gable end of the structure. There appears to be no smoke condition of significance inside based on the lack of smoke from the already missing/vented window on the gabled end.

Get a crew with hooks and hose, pull the ceiling and put the fire out. All the vent is going to do where it is being cut, is move the location of the venting fire and allow it to continue to consume the building.

Or, how about: based on the fact that the wind is blowing the fire back up and over the roof (thus no smoke at the window), and the fact that most of the siding is missing up there - why not hit the fire from the outside with a 2.5", knock it down, and go inside and do the aforementioned like gentlemen?

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Why would you want to push the fire back in the building and across the attic??????

[e92l44 0]

Doesn't look like it's in the structure to me.

I got no problem with being on this roof.

Looks like fire is on the combustible exterior of the house.

Cut a hole. If fire shows thru the hole, and it's pushing good, like the structure is involved then get off and work from a TL basket, or aerial, if no TL available.

[Guest partyrock]

Get a crew with hooks and hose, pull the ceiling and put the fire out. All the vent is going to do where it is being cut, is move the location of the venting fire and allow it to continue to consume the building.

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Until you get some verticle ventilation going the heat, gases, and flame will fill the attick space and allow the fire to spread latterally to unburned areas. A well placed vent hole over the fire will get everything out of the attic space and slow fire spread.